Talk of the County Podcast | Embracing Diversity: Insights from Stonewall Columbus and Pride Month

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:00:14

Happy Pride Month Franklin County. Today, we have a special episode featuring 2 incredibly influential guests of us. We have Stonewall Columbus's executive director, Densil Porteous, and Dr. Leo Taylor, a diversity, equity, and inclusion educator and consultant. To kick things off, could you both share a little bit about your background and what inspired you to specialize in your fields?

Densil Porteous [: 00:00:43

Go ahead. Oh, sure. Well, first, I wanna say thanks for having and making space for us today. It's great to have the conversation. Densil Porteous, he /they pronouns. You know, I I don't know that, I chose to specialize in the field. I think it sort of, picked me. I would say probably when I was growing up, I never thought that I would be, as I like to say, a professional gay.

Densil Porteous [: 00:01:04

I didn't think that I'd be, you know, the executive director of a nonprofit, focused on LGBTQ identities or the CEO of a venture capital fund that focuses on queer identities. But I I know that I started studying, identity when I was in college. I've been trying to understand the evolution of myself and where I was going, as a black person, but also as a as a member of the queer community. I so I designed a major in college called women and gender studies or the study of gender across cultural lines. A schloptic major, I went to Kenya College. And so I think maybe that's where maybe that's where I sort of, started to think about the linking and understanding of identity and gender and culture. But, no, yeah, I never never thought I'd I'd be sitting in this seat, but I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be in this seat.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:01:51

Yeah. I think I feel the same way. I think it called to me. Yeah. Just given interests and gifts and talents. We call it in higher education paid game. Yes. So, meaning, you know, we're frequently sought out for our expertise because we have we're lived reality experts.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:02:09

I'm a queer trans man. I also have a couple of invisible disabilities. I'm a first generation college student. Some people call me Doctor Leo, others Doctor Taylor, you can call me whatever. It's all, up to personal preference, but I use hehim pronouns, for now, but I think that could change in the future. I don't know. I transitioned 25 years ago, almost a trampaw. And back then things were very, very different.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:02:39

I actually started out in psychology. I'm from Indiana. I went to Ball State for my bachelor's and my master's. Go Cardinals. My

Densil Porteous [: 00:02:45

husband went there too. Did you went there? No. My husband went there.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:02:48

Oh, okay. Cool. That's awesome.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:02:51

I see Indiana.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:02:52

Indiana. Yeah. Yeah. And I was a psychology major. I was interested in, ironically, how we communicate gender.

Densil Porteous [: 00:03:01

I was a psychology major too.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:03:02

Too. Yeah.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:03:03

So So, you know, I think there's some of that was a a deeply personal journey of figuring my own stuff out.

Densil Porteous [: 00:03:08

Yeah.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:03:09

Then I switched to biology and ultimately got my PhD at Cornell in entomology. So I'm actually an entomologist. Okay. But what I'm interested in is the way males and females interact. Mhmm. So I've worked in mating systems and mating ecology, and it's all about interpersonal relationships. I think it's a good example of how we all have many passions, and we don't necessarily have one path that takes us any one way, but I think it all led me to where I am now, as an evolutionary biologist, really understanding how we we come to be who we are through association and the associations that we make throughout our lifetimes, and how impactful the socialization process is on people and and forming their beliefs. But, I I switched from entomology because I had the opportunity to do DEI full time, and I do workshops, their training programs, and consulting.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:04:05

Didn't come out of any of just nowhere. I've been doing this work for free for about 30 years, and only recently did it become something that I could do to actually pay the bills, and I feel like this is where my calling is, in communicating and educating and also being, out. Because trans visibility saves lives. Back when I started my transition, there were books in Barnes and Noble, and that was it. And I was too terrified to buy them. So I would go visit I would do, like, visiting hours to the books at Barnes and Noble, and go flip through these pages and see these pictures of men who were born like me. And that visibility is so crucial. So, again, I think it was a calling for me too.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:04:50

But, you know, being, able to, be comfortable with oneself and being in a community where, that's embraced is extremely, important. And the whole theme of this year's, activities, live out loud. I just think that there's no better way you can sum up in 3 words, being in a community where people can be their be their authentic self and, be embraced and be and be proud and be loud. You know. It is it it is one of the things, no matter who you are, when you have the ability to say out loud and proud who you are, it it is just, something that, gives you the strength through good times and bad. As the executive director of the, Stonewall, organization, you must every every pride parade and and pride festival and and and this whole, month of activities, is great. But this past, Saturday, you had to really feel good, looking at the size of the crowd and looking at how diverse the crowd was. And I couldn't think of any major organization that wasn't present, and and and and and showing up and showing out, so to speak, as I like to say.

Densil Porteous [: 00:06:29

Yeah. Thank you.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:06:30

You know, just celebrating Columbus Pride Festival, this past weekend. Could you share a little bit about how, this event and all of the time, leading up to it has evolved over the years?

Densil Porteous [: 00:06:48

You know, I think, when we when we think back to the history of the prior merger in Columbus, we obviously think back to 1981, 1982, The formation of the organization is still a loyal union back then. But when when we think back to 1981 and 1982, those were protest march. And this is still a protest march, so I don't wanna sort of confuse that. But I think, in 1981 and 1982, the level of severity in terms of protests was a little bit higher or or, the focus was slightly different. I mean, here were 200 maybe potential people marching from, you know, the Ohio State Union down to the state house, and and some of them had bags over their head because there was fear, that if they were seen, they'd get fired from their jobs. Right? But at that particular point in time, this was also an activist organization, and and the activist, energy that they were bringing was a very different type of activist energy. Right? Right? They were saying, to be seen to march is how we were gonna be heard, to cause disruption, on on one of the biggest streets in in the in the community allows people to see us, and we know that they will then hear us, and and and we can make space for ourselves, in protest. I think what has happened over time, has really been a demonstration of of community feeling safe to step out.

Densil Porteous [: 00:08:03

So going from 200 marchers to a 1000 to to 1400 to, you know, 22,000, and now here we are at 221,000 registered marchers. That's that's measurable because that's also not only the community, queer community saying, I'm here. It's it's it's members and and allies and and accomplices saying we see you. Right? They're coming out to say we see you and we support you. So that's a phenomenal thing. I think what we have also done within the organization is that we've shifted, sort of the the thought about what the festival and march is about. I think, the evolution of prides across the country have gone from, protests, to celebration. I think we are now at a moment where we need to be protest, celebration, and recognition, where we can do all of those things at once.

Densil Porteous [: 00:08:49

Mhmm. And that's what our festival and our march is about. How do we uplift our community to say the space is for you, so come? How do we uplift community for our allies and accomplices to say thank you, so celebrate with us? But also a moment to say to our community members who don't often get to be, in safe spaces like that, there are resources that you may not have all the time, so come and see those resources. So, you know, it it is great to think that there are people coming from rural areas in the state of Ohio and sometimes outside of the state of Ohio, that are coming and getting services at the festival now. March is an, interwoven, piece of celebration, and protest. So we have our LGBTQ groups that are there marching. We encourage all of them to march. We don't, charge them a registration fee.

Densil Porteous [: 00:09:37

Some organizations, we do. But our organizations, we say come March, we put them in the front. That's where you should be. We want you to be seen, and we wanna support you. And then our our corporate partners and everyone else, they're behind us. And they're, again, being there to be supportive of us, and and encourage us and push us along in that in that march. So the evolution has been a phenomenal one, I think. And I think now in our community, we're, again, trying to find how we strike the right balance, within these moments of reflection, to be, again, uplift and protest.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:10:07

The way that I like to look at these type of, events is that, they are about they're about celebration, recognition, remembrance. Mhmm. But it's they're also about purpose Yes. And purpose within caps. Mhmm. And that is what you're talking about. Protests can't be, lost in all of the the joy because you want to get that out, particularly at a point in time where, many people are wanting to put being discriminatory back in style again. Yeah.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:10:46

You know, I'll call it out loud discrimination being put in style.

Densil Porteous [: 00:10:50

They're saying

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:10:50

no good things out loud. It used to, you know, it used to hide in the shadows. Yes. But now, we have enough people that are waving the flag of, that discrimination is okay and you can be out loud about that too. That's another reason why it was important to take up all the high street.

Densil Porteous [: 00:11:09

Correct.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:11:09

Every bit of high street. The left side, the right side, and the middle to say, hey. We here. We in Franklin County. This is how we roll. This is what we do is is important. Many listeners, you know, are familiar with it. As we said, the pride festival, the pride march is probably the biggest in the Midwest.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:11:30

But can you tell a little bit about, and this question is for both of you, efforts throughout the year that are put on for the LBGTQ plus community. Because it's not a it's not we all many or, groups have a month a month to, you know, recognition, but it's really about 365 days a year. You are who you are, and you have to look out for the interest and promote the interest.

Densil Porteous [: 00:12:00

So, I mean and I think it really is 365. You know, I have, I started with Stonewall, in the summer of 2020. And each year, I've, I've tried to think about the theme, for pride to sort of bring the organization and the community along on a journey. And, you know, as I think about, one of the first ones that we we launched was pride 365. To help people understand that pride is 365 days a year. It's not just singularly one weekend. It's not singularly a week, a month. It is all the time.

Densil Porteous [: 00:12:28

And that was the first message. The next message that actually we had as a theme was purpose, passion, and power. Right? So to lead into the notion of purpose. There is purpose and passion and power in in getting together, coming together as community. I mean, this year is the the live out loud notion, right, to help people understand and remember that, part of this is is is that. Right? And and it's happening 365 days a year. I think here in Columbus, you know, Stonewall does a lot of work, to create space for queer identities, outside of just June, whether that be, presentations or training sessions or just literally meetups here in in our building. Mhmm.

Densil Porteous [: 00:13:01

We do a lot of that work. We also will leave, the the building and and travel and work with our our community partners to do presentations at, corporate organizations and headquarters. And those are the things that we do, but we are not, singular in this particular region. We are lucky to be a part of an ecosystem that has a lot of other LGBT organizations, like Kaleidoscope Youth Center, like Black Out and Proud, like Black Trans Men of Ohio. And there are all these other organizations that are out there doing phenomenal work, across not only Columbus and Franklin County, but the state. So, you know, as much as we would like to say that we can do it all, we we can't do it all. But I do, call ourselves the the queer city hall or the LGBTQ city hall. You know, we're the 411.

Densil Porteous [: 00:13:43

People call us first. And then we connect them to the resources that may be out there in the community. So, you know, it is 365. People are calling, outside of the month of June, to get resources to be connected to life saving, for and affirming, organizations, as well as our our allies are also calling us, all the time to figure out how they can become better allies and move along that journey to our conflicts. So we were doing a lot of things throughout the throughout the year.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:14:10

I want to live out loud 365 days a year. You know? It's not just a monthly thing for me. I'm gay and queer and trans and all that all year long. In fact, I went to a store and was looking for some extra pride gear and So, oh, you getting ready for pride? I said, honey, I'm always getting ready. I'm always collecting stuff because for me, pride is a daily thing and it took me a long time to get to the point where I felt like I could live out lie out loud and not care as much about what people thought, and feel so insecure, and feel so vulnerable to being targeted, because people, like you said, people are still getting targeted. We had that situation in Whitehall, where maintenance workers who were trying to paint the crosswalks were harassed. Like you said, hate is is public now. It's been sanctioned, and people feel emboldened to to act in really horrible ways.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:15:08

We need that visibility of the queer community, and we need the community to stand together and and show that, that we are stronger together, that we're not going back in the closets. No matter how much anti trans legislation comes our way, trans people are not going to disappear. What's gonna happen is the harder they push against us, the harder we're gonna push back. Because we are one very resilient community,

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:15:35

and

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:15:35

we're made up of a large number of different identities that, from various marginalized populations. And it's really important that we we come together with our allies, we have to have our allies. It's a numbers game, really. It's about who has institutional control. Mhmm. We cannot make progress without our allies. Mhmm. So, yeah, it should be an everyday thing, and if folks want to support queer and trans folks outside of Pride Month, really, what I tell people is get to know us.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:16:07

Not just one of us, don't have your gay friend, or your trans friend. Right? That doesn't give you the whole picture of the diversity of experiences and lived realities within the LGBTQ community. We are so incredibly diverse. Even within, just look at 1 population, gay men, and all the sub communities in there. So get to know us, listen to our stories, read memoirs, watch TED Talks. Like, the more stories you can hear, the better the idea you're gonna get of of the issues that queer folks face, and then you're gonna see opportunities. Mhmm. And I believe that oppression is an opportunity.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:16:42

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. That's an important that's an important message, that you're you're sending right there. So it takes me off script, doctor Taylor. It's, it's it's it's it's okay you're you're at you're at the parade and you're marching and you're engaged, but it's important what you as an individual do on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of the next week. Yeah. How do you stand up and how do you how do you interact? Sorry.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:17:14

How do you interact? That's the first time that happened on top of it. And how you interact, how you interact during the week. You gotta be an advocate when, you're not engaged in, formal act activities. It's important that you are there all the time. Again, it's a 365 day responsibility. And I think talk a little bit about the importance of civic engagement, namely voting, namely being a part of the process. You know, you're speaking of legislation gets introduced by individuals who feel like they're representing a con constituency that will be pleased with their actions.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:18:11

Just wanna follow-up on yes. The the what you're doing during the week or outside of pride, you know, who doesn't wanna go to a gay party? We throw the best parties. That's

Densil Porteous [: 00:18:19

what we do. No.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:18:21

We do. We

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:18:21

do. So show up at pride and celebrate with us. That's fun. It's beautiful. We're all feeling good. We're all getting the feels, but we need you when the feels aren't so good. We need you holding our hand and and and letting us, have that support that we need when stuff gets really scary. Because even the strongest of us are vulnerable, and need that support.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:18:48

And what you do, and that, if you just come out, if you come out for pride, that's great, we need you there. But if that's all you do, then are you really an ally? Are you performing in some way? Because it can risk looking like performativity if your heart isn't really in it. And I'll let you speak to the more civic engagements.

Densil Porteous [: 00:19:12

You know, I've I, I'm not American. Well, I wasn't born in America, so I was I I sort I'm American now, which I'm very excited about. But I was born in Jamaica West Indies, and, and I think about sort of, the opportunity and relationship when you think about the rights that you have as American and and what you should be doing, to sort of acknowledge that. And I think the greatest thing to do to acknowledge those rights is vote, to be a part of that process. And if you wanna go a little bit further than that, then you serve, and you run for office, and you step into the space to be seen, to have a voice, and to have a seat at the table. I think until we have a seat at the table, you do have to vote. And hopefully, after you have a seat at the table, you continue to vote and you continue to encourage everyone else to vote. Because I think it it as we understand within this representative democracy, the only way that we can have our voices heard, as they say, is is to vote, is to kick them out of their jobs.

Densil Porteous [: 00:20:13

That's something I always try to help people remember that it is a job when you're an elected official. You are in a job, and we can vote you out. We should vote you out if you're not paying attention to the community that is asking or saying things for you. So I think the the civic duty is, 1, figuring out, that, or helping people understand that their vote actually does matter. As much as people say it doesn't matter, it does matter. Because, you know, I think about when we look at election results, and they're like, oh, well, you know, 15,672 people said this one thing. Well, that one thing matters because politicians will look at those numbers and understand, you know, okay. Well, here's what this way is, or here's what I don't have to think about, or here's what I don't have to worry about.

Densil Porteous [: 00:20:55

It's incremental change. It does take time. But voting is probably the biggest thing that you can do in order to demonstrate political power, or validity of an action within within, the American democracy as it currently exists. But, you know, I'm I'm I'm thankful for the opportunity to vote and try and encourage everybody else to do it anytime I can. You know, and, and, again, I think there's power in in the voting because it says something with the numbers. Numbers mean something in this world we live in when they when people can see, the raw numbers of folks who are for or against something, it it does have a reflection on how how they may react or respond Yes. To politicians.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:21:35

Yes. We we must not become discouraged. We must continue to hold a belief that we live in a representative democracy. And what you outlined was the benefits of living in a a representative democracy. You vote. You hold those accountable to look out for the interests of everyone. Franklin County's motto is every resident every day, and our administration seeks to not only say that, but show exam tangible examples every day of us doing just that.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:22:12

Let me interject one thing about intersectionality here, because it's not just LGBTQ issues that folks need to be aware of. There was a petition that I encountered at Pride this this year, increasing minimum wage. That's an LGBTQ issue, because LGBTQ individuals, youth in particular, are subject to high rates of homelessness. Trans people are subjected to high rates of discrimination across the board. 41% of trans people attempt suicide at some point in their lives. That's compared to less than 1% of the general population. I'm one of those people in that statistic. So minimum wage is an issue that affects LGBTQ people, disproportionately than other folks.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:22:56

So it's it's not just those issues that are, like, labeled, okay, this is gonna affect LGBTQ people. We've gotta look at all the identities and intersecting factors.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:23:05

Yep. How do you all ensure that the advocacy work that you do is inclusive of all the identities within the LDGTQ spectrum.

Densil Porteous [: 00:23:17

We were having a a earlier conversation on the side, and I and I actually, I think I looked to him about this earlier this year. I believe that those of us who exist in identities that are more oppressed often walk around, with an understanding of what needs to be left out of something or exclude from a thing. And so it makes it that much harder for us not to think about the people who are not at the table with us. As a queer black person leading an or as a queer international black person, as a queer international black person who's a dad, like all these layers of identity that exist where I exist, it is hard for me not to think about the other people who aren't at the table. And to ensure that those who are working alongside me are also thinking about those who are not at the table. Representative even within our organization, I'm very intentional to say, that I wanna see a variety of identities sitting at the table with us as leading and leading and and doing the work because I can't speak for everyone. I can think about everyone. I do ad nauseam.

Densil Porteous [: 00:24:18

Right? I I'm a introvert. I'm an empath, and I I I and I think about people, and I feel all their energy. Everyone's sitting in this room. I'm thinking about all of y'all. I'm thinking about the things that you have to do outside of this moment. And so but I also know that I can't, speak for all of you.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:24:30

Mhmm.

Densil Porteous [: 00:24:30

And so it's important to find representation or have represented voices who can lean into those places. So I think, in our work and the way that I do the work, I say we practice inclusion first, and then diversity will come. So everything that we do, again, we practice inclusion first and then diversity will come. Because I always just I always talk about the story. Remember what it was like to be a little kid on a playground and someone didn't include you on something. You like, it was the worst feeling ever. It was the worst feeling ever. So as we are adults now, we should find every opportunity to inclusion, so that other people can feel welcome.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:25:04

That's why it's important in every workplace too. I mean, you need people with different, I don't like using ableist language, but there's I haven't come up with a good replacement, blind spots. So I will never know what it's like to be black or brown. So what I need are the voices of those folks present who are gonna say, have you thought of it this way? Because I might have that blind spot. We've got to have diverse perspectives across the board of all identities to be able to tackle those tough questions. And then I'm that's not even getting to the business case of diversity, which, I don't even like going to the money part, but it's there, you know? It is there. But but for me, it's an ethics thing. We And and it's an inclusion thing because I do know what that felt like.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:25:50

And there are still too many people in our own community that are excluded. We still have much work to do within the LGBTQ community. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you get pronouns. Doesn't mean you're not gonna have a problem with it and have an argument at times, and I have plenty of those. And sometimes it's surprising to me how much resistance there can be from within the community, but it it's just people didn't choose how they were socialized. But once you have the knowledge, then it's up to you to make whatever choice you're gonna do. And that's gonna reveal to me something about who you are. That's going to reveal to me your character.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:26:26

If I say, just by using a young person's chosen name, you'll reduce their likelihood of attempting suicide by 56 percent. If that doesn't affect you and make you go, all I have to do is use a different word as suicide prevention, that's gonna tell me something about you. But your resistance to pronouns, that just tells me you've been conditioned to believe that something is right and the other way is wrong. And my question always is, who made that rule and why? What is proper grammar? Who decided? Alright. So we have a lot of work to do outside the LGBTQ community, but also within.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:27:02

Yes. Because there is, America is a culture of assimilation. Yes. You, you are taught that very early, that that you need to assimilate. You need to be like it's laid out for you to be.

Densil Porteous [: 00:27:17

Yep.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:27:19

You need to wear certain clothes. You need to play certain music. If you play music that varies, keep the volume at a certain point. It is like all of these it's it's and and we're not even talking about laws when we're talking about assimilate. We're just talking about culture and how what you're supposed to do and how you're supposed to do it.

Densil Porteous [: 00:27:43

You know, they used to use the the melting pot analogy, you know, melt. And I and I grew up in New York, and it was always, you know, New York is a melting pot. Melting pot would project. And I think I've shifted from that because I didn't like it, because when I think about a melting pot, everything well, everything is the same once you're done. Right? And I would say we're more like a salad. Right? Like it's a right? Like, when you think about a salad, you can see all the distinct pieces still, this is chopped salad. But right. But for the most part, right, like, when you think about a a salad, right, you see the tomatoes, you see the different lettuce, romaine, whatever you wanna use, onions.

Densil Porteous [: 00:28:15

And I think that's really what it is because it's when you bring all of those flavors together, Right? Like, that's the amazing thing about the salad. Like, it's that you can see those things. When you think about a melting pot, everything's flavor gets lost and wrapped up in each other. And I think, to me, America should not be a melting pot. We should be reflective of the salad. We should be okay with being a salad, and excited about the salad that we have because I think it's one of the best salads.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:28:38

And we

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:28:39

need to remember that there were greens here already.

Densil Porteous [: 00:28:41

100%. If it's a melting pot, we we raise indigenous populations.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:28:45

And put in the most simplest terms, what is long lasting, there's only one flavor? How many flavors is the only one that lasts? If you want resiliency and you wanna be long term, you gotta have more flavors.

Densil Porteous [: 00:28:57

That's why I have so many flavors. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the truth.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:29:03

Yeah. Nobody you can't get away with doing the same thing the same way all the time in in in in in PA World

Densil Porteous [: 00:29:10

to to,

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:29:11

stand and test the time. Denzel, can you share any upcoming events or initiatives within the LBGT community that you are excited about, that you could tell listeners about to get involved in?

Densil Porteous [: 00:29:25

You know, I mean, I think, pride month is not over yet. So that's the first thing. We we have lots of time to still uplift, recognize, and celebrate what's happening, here, in Franklin County and around, the country, probably, let's say around the world, for for that type of thing. You know, often the next sort of big moment that the queer community and LGBT community is looking at is LGBTQ History Month in October. So I know here in our organization, so we're moving on to October and planning events then. And October is a really important month as we think about LGBTQ history, and and taking space to uplift the variety of identities, and dedicating our time to talking about history. You know, I I often say American history is queer history. We are a part of it.

Densil Porteous [: 00:30:10

We have been everywhere. Some of us who have had the opportunity to be out and loud, with those identities and others who haven't been able to speak up and and live in their truth, but we've we've always been there. And so LGBT History Month is a really important one. And during that month, we also have National Coming Out Day on October 11th, which is a really important time for us to make space, and it, so that people can feel safe coming out, and then for other adults or even young folks to come out in that moment so that other people can see that, and, again, have that that safety. October is also another, sort of important moment for us. One of the first marches on Washington for LGBTQ rights happened in October. And so that's the moment we we definitely, make sports make space for and celebrate during that month.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:30:54

Thank you. You know, doctor Taylor's question is for you. We at Franklin County, as I stated, are rooted in every resident every day believing in diversity, equity, and inclusion. It it's really our grand aspiration is that it is ingrained in the DNA of the organization so that it'll stand the test of time. It'll be it won't you won't be able to wash it away. You won't. It it'll it's gotta be more than just words in a preamble employee handbook. It has to be part of the part of the culture or just grind into the the genetics of the county.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:31:33

Can you talk a little bit about why promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging in the workplace is so important? And how can, we continue building a safer, more equitable organization?

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:31:47

Yeah. I like to start that by saying what DEI is and what it isn't. It is acknowledging that we all bring something different to the table and that we want all of those things included. So it's like being invited to a dance party, like the movie 16 Candles. I'm a child of the eighties. So 16 Candles, the nerds were hanging out at the, at the side. They were invited, so they were included. But they were not having equal access to the party.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:32:13

Anytime they would wanna go dance, they would get pushed aside. That's a lack of equity. Equity is simply equal access. And if we're not including everyone in our workplace, if we're not giving people equal access due to various identities, because the system has been built with embedded inequities, then people aren't gonna feel a sense of belongingness. They're not gonna be able to show up at work for who they are. There was a TED talk by Jodi Ann Burry that was incredibly influential on me, a black woman, who talked about not being able to wear her natural hair at work, which made me look into the crowning, which I believe is just past yes. Here in Ohio, again, a blind spot. I have no hair, so I don't really have to think about this.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:32:55

I don't either. Yeah.

Densil Porteous [: 00:32:57

I'll jump into it.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:32:57

Prior to that

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:32:58

You just freshly cleaned up this morning, man.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:33:01

I had hair before, but I'm wearing my hair naturally

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:33:05

We all 3 or 4. Yeah. But you don't see any kids. Yes. Yeah. Three balls in the business. How often does that happen? A first for talking to county.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:33:16

Well, I learned, you know, it was eye opening for me because hearing her talk about her experience about how she was saying don't show up as your full authentic self because it's not safe for some of us. And I had never thought about that. What if I didn't have the privilege of wearing my hair naturally? How does that affect someone showing up to work? When they're, like you said, assimilation to what? To white dominant cultural norms. How does that make a person feel when the dress code is very binary? If you are assigned female, you have to dress like this. If you're assigned male, you have to dress like that. It doesn't create a welcoming environment. What are you gonna do? You're gonna lose talent. I saw us lose, at a place that I worked, a very talented individual because she was black and the way she dressed and the way she kept her hair was in, not in alignment with what the, person in power thought should be the case, and so he was going to create a dress code.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:34:17

So she left. We're gonna lose talent. And that's going to affect the organization, but also it's going to affect those individuals. And those individuals have faced, enough already. And it's not that difficult to to, look at policies and see where there are opportunities for growth. But for me, it's about heart centered work. I believe organizations are not people. I don't believe businesses are people.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:34:43

I believe they're made up of people, and people come with their own prejudices and biases. They come with their own experience. I call them experience filters. I see the world through the lens of my experiences, or lack thereof. And what we need is dialogue. DEI is not about indoctrination. It's about dialogue. It's about understanding each other.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:35:02

And coming to the table with sincere curiosity. I wanna know what your experience was like, because mine has been different. Let's see how that compares, and where there are opportunities for me to advocate for you and for you to advocate for me. And once we start centering on those individuals, I feel like that expands, and that spills over into the organization. And it results in, like you're talking about, institutionalization of DEI. Not performative acts of we're gonna be a sponsor once a year for the pride event. No. What are you doing at an institutional level to make sure that DEI is being centered? And DEI Centering DEI is centering people.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:35:42

It's centering the people who are differentially affected by systems of oppression. Mhmm. And why wouldn't we wanna do that for the people who are working for us? Why wouldn't we wanna invest in that environment so that they succeed? Because if they succeed, we succeed.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:35:58

Yeah. You can be intentional about recruiting, diverse individuals across the spectrum, But it's the quality of the interaction and, the sense of being a a true part of the team is what's gonna have us the organization be successful in the long run.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:36:20

Yes. And that's getting back to what Denzel said. Focus on inclusion first, diversity will follow. You do it the other way around and not focus on inclusion, you're gonna you can get diversity, but you're not gonna keep it.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:36:31

Yeah. The the quality of how you're treated and the comp truly being a part of the conversation and activities is what's matters. Because as you you use the the analogy of not getting picked on the playground Yeah. To, you know, just being in the classroom and be allowed to have a Valentine's Day party and all of the popular kids got 50 cards in their box and not so popular kid got 5 cards in their box. They're gonna they're gonna feel some type of way. They're true I mean, that's you gotta be you gotta truly feel like you are a part of something no matter where it is. You know? No matter what it is and and like you say, as an employer, that is important. Doctor Till, your work spans across many sectors, but I'd like you to discuss the importance of elevating the LBGTQ in educational institutions, especially given the attacks on DEI and education right now is crossing into sports.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:37:36

You hear, you know, trans athletes is the topic on sports center more than the one anyone would have ever imagined.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:37:45

Yeah. And it's it's many much of it is rooted in myths and misconceptions that there are, say, men who are presenting themselves as women to go compete in women's sports. I've heard that logic. It's just simply ridiculous and false. With respect to higher education, I don't think we should be waiting until higher education to center DEI. We should be hitting that with preschool. Why shouldn't equity and inclusion be something that we center conversations around throughout a person's lifetime. And the fact that it's under attack in higher ed, for me, just reveals it to me, indicates that we've made massive progress.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:38:28

This huge backlash with the anti trans bills, with anti DEI, There are people who are afraid. And to them, I would just, I ask, why are you afraid? Why is this so intimidating and terrifying for you? Out the way they are is so incredibly upsetting that you have to go after, basic rights. But, and I lost track of the thought. The question was about it's our first hiccup.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:39:04

How do we how do we elevate, LGBTQ LGBTQ. In educational institutions, the importance of it, why it matters. Because you got these attacks that are current inside of of of education right now. Some of it's being mandated upon Yeah. Higher education, because, you know, that educated people and educated places of learning have always been stereotyped as being ultra liberal, where everybody is, you know, hit in the clouds, but now that seems to be under attack. And your your your institutions of higher education are becoming much more conservative and sometimes not by choice.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:39:50

Yeah. And it's not not across the board that everything's, everyone is liberal. I mean, 35% of graduate, professional, and technical students experience harassment, not just by students, but also faculty and staff in a survey that was conducted. So, I always go back to the individual level. Why does it matter? Because LGBTQ people exist, LGBTQ children exist, and they are significantly impacted by lack of visibility, lack of support. These the statistics that show the rates of depression and anxiety, especially in trans youth, are staggering. And I show these statistics to folks and ask them, does this mean that something's inherently wrong with trans people? No. I think, suicide attempts, anxiety, depression is a logical response to an environment that wishes you were gone, that wishes you didn't exist.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:40:45

So elevating the stories, I mean, we need to be learning about LGBTQ history not just once a month. We need to be learning American history is black history, American history is queer history. We need to be integrating all of these things into the curriculum, so that those youth who are struggling with these issues don't end up homeless, don't end up at the end of their path, or at the end of their rope calling the Trevor Project, for example, for support over and over again. It matters to the lives of young people, including those in college, especially those in college where they might still feel like they can't be out. And I know students at, say, Ohio State, who don't feel safe being completely out, even now. So it it it has an impact on the individual level, and because of that, it also has an impact on the community.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:41:38

Can you talk a little bit about the trailer project? They're the major national retailers rounding up right now for the Taylor Project. So just for our listeners, talk a little bit about what the Trevor Project is and the goals around the Trevor Project?

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:41:54

Well, it is, a crisis hotline for LGBTQ youth who are, struggling with mental health, and, it's it's intended to save lives. I I actually wanted to volunteer for it. But as I was going through the training, I realized, oh, this hits a little too close to home for me, and I wasn't expecting that. And, wasn't sure how I was gonna be able to provide that support given my own history with the topic. So it is an invaluable resource. I wish I had had something like that back in 1991 was my suicide attempt. It was pre internet, pre cell phone. You know, I had to ride my bicycle to my friend's house to send a message.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:42:44

Wouldn't have given anything for some sort of resource like that. So it's it's so incredibly important that, free resources like that exist for the community and especially for young people.

Densil Porteous [: 00:42:57

Yeah. You know? You know, and I mean, what we have seen over the last, you know, 2 to 3 years, during the pandemic, there was an increased need, for those resources and for connection to those resources. And the former executive that was, at the Trevor Project at the time went through a really sort of intentional growth period. They create a lot of relationships with corporate partners, and increase their fundraising to ensure that they could increase the capacity of the organization to respond to the needs of of young people across the country. And that continues, which has been a phenomenal thing to see sort of the level of attention that the Trevor Project has received now, appropriately so, so that they can continue to save lives. I think what what I hope continues to happen is that the resources that they need, they will continue to receive, so they can continue to grow. The sad thing is that you have to think about the fact that, there is a need to continue to grow, because young people are still facing the message that they don't belong and they shouldn't be here. So that part of the sad, that that messaging is still sort of out there, but extremely glad that the Trevor Project is growing appropriately to support the young folks who may need that support.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:44:10

It's it's tough for the many individuals each day that express to their parents who they are and are almost immediately evicted by their parents. Mhmm.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:44:24

It happened to me. I was homeless for a summer, and it affected my education. It meant that I had to go half time and support myself full time, to pay the bills, and it had lasting consequences on my trajectory. One thing I wanna add to the Trevor Project, though, is that is an allyship opportunity. Yeah. We we need people who can step up and and take those shifts to be that person who's gonna be on that chat chat room to take those, those calls. And and literally anybody can do that, and the curriculum that they put you through is very, like, it's very specific. You're not making things up as you go.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:45:05

It's manageable, but it just wasn't manageable for me, for my own personal reasons. But But yes, those are the sorts of things, those 365, right? Outside of Pride, there are plenty of opportunities for folks to engage at various levels to be allies for the LGBTQ community.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:45:25

I'm so glad you mentioned the Trevor Project because it gave us a chance to put that information out there for for those that listen and and can, research it and find out how to get involved and how to contribute. So thank you for mentioning that. You shared a powerful experience, at a commissioner meeting, last fall. Can you share how a society can better support the transgender, community?

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:45:49

Yes. 1st and foremost, rethink the notion that there's something wrong with trans people. The pathologization of trans identities is one of the most harmful things. So for me it was rooted in religion. My church performed an exorcism of the demon of homosexuality, and when that failed, and back then there was little understanding between the difference between sexuality and gender identity, so it was all conflated. But when that failed, that's what really set me over the edge, because that was my last hope. And that was all because I was being told that something about me was so wrong that even God wouldn't accept me. So stop positioning it as though there's something wrong with trans or LGB folks.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:46:43

And I think the way to really, like, internalize that, again, is to get to know us. Get to know the people, and get to know our experiences, and our lives, and the challenges that we faced, And and be open to learning. Be open to unlearning. Remember, we've we've been socialized, we've been indoctrinated throughout our lives to believe a certain way, and a lot of learning involves unlearning the things that are no longer serving us or are causing harm to other people. And once you know those experiences, then it's up to you to decide, oh, well, what I thought was true isn't really true, so now I've got to reconcile that and move forward with an understanding, a better understanding of who these people are and what they need. The same is true for me. I I aspire to be an ally to, people of color. And I leave it to them to decide if I deserve that that label.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:47:44

If I've done the work. And the work for me is centering those voices, is taking a step back and saying, you know what, I've got white, cis passing, male privilege, I need to make space and room for other voices, and also I can use my voice to center and uplift those voices, which is a crucial part of allyship. So I, I shared in in those in that that talk or that that speech that I gave with the commissioners that that difference is not a crime. Difference should not be illegal. And that's what I see Mhmm. Happening. It's positioning being different as being wrong, bad, and it should be outlawed. And we've got to move away from that paradigm because if you think about it, if you look at all of the people in a population, you've got some people, a big group of people that are like everybody else, and then you've got people out sprinkled out that are different.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:48:45

Just because you're different, just because who you are is less common doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. All human variation is normal, It's all natural. And to position it differently, that there is a right and wrong way to be, is white supremacist ideology. And and that is what we have to move away from.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:49:07

Yep. Talk a little bit about, some of the work you've very recently, done as a consultant with the city of Whitehall facing, bias issues, in their community by simply wanting to, as a municipality, show support, the LBGTQ community through simply coloring the streets, the crosswalks.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:49:37

Yeah. Apparently, painting the crosswalks pride colors, there's 13 of them that they paint every year, it was so offensive. So offensive that the maintenance workers were harassed and, told to go kill themselves. Now, as a queer trans person in living in this country at this time, if somebody drove by and told me go kill myself, I would get off the street, would not be messing around with that. So the mayor pulled everybody off, and then was criticized for cowering the bullies, which was not the case.

Densil Porteous [: 00:50:05

Right.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:50:06

He had never intended to cower in any way. It was just simply for the safety of the workers. And he got in touch with me. We problem solved, and I felt very strongly that what needed to happen was the community needed to come together, to show solidarity and support. And, the mayor was thrilled with the outcome. We put a call out to folks, and we expanded the we didn't do 13, crosswalks, but we expanded the one right in front of city hall by 7 feet on either side, to send a little bit of a louder message. And it just so happens, this was totally secondary. I happened to be an artist as well, and I had the perfect piece I suggested 1st I suggested, they they, get a queer artist to display some artwork, and then I showed them my piece.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:51:01

Now it's on loan there, but it's a mosaic that's made up of tens of thousands of pieces. And I felt like it was a perfect representation of this situation. That together, when we come together, our message is louder, clearer, and makes a bigger impact than any one individual piece. So folks came together, they painted that street, they did a little ceremony with the reveal on the mosaic, and the haters did not win. They've they've gotten some criticism, of course, online, but largely, as far as I know, the mural's still there.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:51:35

They got more permanency out the wheel.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:51:38

And it's gonna be there. That's right. It's gonna be there until mother nature says it's done. Yeah. So it worked out, and the community showed up. I know that the message made it to Cleveland and back down, and people showed up, and and, not a single employee had to paint, that that street. It was all the community.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:52:00

That's what it's all about. We we, you know, we we've talked about the need to support each other 300 and 65 days a year. That leads me into asking, what does allyship to the LPGG community look like? And then secondarily, why are allies so important? Questions for both of you.

Densil Porteous [: 00:52:20

You know, I think we've talked touched based on a little bit of, during the conversation. A couple of years ago, maybe it was last year, maybe 2 years ago, I wrote an article that talked about moving from allied to accomplice. And so sort of contextualizing it. I mean, I think allies are important. We have many of them out there. Allies are the folks who can hopefully sometimes make the soil a little bit softer for us, to do the work that we need to do. But allies, when I think about it, are sort of like the people who show at pride potentially. And again, and that's their allyship is I'm showing up and being supportive.

Densil Porteous [: 00:52:58

We need them because then we have extra visibility. We can't, sort of do it ourselves. Right? As I said, you know, we might have 22,000 registered marchers, but there are thousands of people lining the streets, because we can't march and be on the streets. I mean, we could try, but, you know, I think the numbers would start to shrink. And so that's the importance of allies in terms of being seen. Mhmm. I often push it a little bit further when I talk about the notion of accomplice, because I wanna honor those people who are accomplices. You know, when I think about an accomplice, I think of someone, Bonnie and Clyde are just popping into my head.

Densil Porteous [: 00:53:31

Right? But you think about accomplice, and accomplice is someone who's standing beside you. Accomplice is someone who's getting bloody with you. Mhmm. Accomplice is someone who says, I will use my voice when you are not there. You know, so I think we we on that journey of allyship, which, again, we we don't think for all of our allies, there are also these people who are accomplices, who are in the thick of the work that we're doing, and they are even more critical for us. Right? And these are also folks who may put their bodies in front of ours to say, you know, here is here is me. Harm me first before you harm my queer siblings. I mean, I think that's also a very important thing, and we have lots of allies out there when we think about people who are in our march, right, when we think about, you know, a lot not not everyone who's standing at the very front of the march carrying that sign for us, is a queer identity.

Densil Porteous [: 00:54:14

And in my particular viewpoint, you know, I think, when our accomplices can put themselves, ahead of us to leverage, their identities to in support of us, I think, is the most beautiful thing. When we think about parents, though, that those who support their their young children. Many parents are accomplices, and we want all the parents to be accomplices. And that's part of the work that we're doing in terms of showing up and educating and helping people understand, that there is a a human, behind, each alphabet letter or whatever you wanna call it. Like, there are individuals there. So, you know, I think to me, allies, accomplices, we need them all. It is a journey from one to the other, and it's also about sick personal safety. I think just like within our career community, we want our our our folks to be safe, to be openly out when they can be.

Densil Porteous [: 00:55:07

I think it's the same thing for allies and accomplices. Maybe not all allies feel fully safe, putting their bodies in front of ours, but they can still leverage their voices and their message and and and do volunteer work and and other things like that to make sure, that our community understands that they're here to be supportive and be a part, of the fight that we're in.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:55:25

I appreciate the distinction that you just made between allyship and accomplice. Another word that I use is co conspirator. Mhmm. Mhmm. But I think that's that's really important so that folks know that you don't have to be you know, LGBTQ rights doesn't have to become your passion for you to be an ally. Because we all have our passion points. Right? The things that we really love. Some people get into biking, which I don't understand because I've never been a biker or a runner.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:55:51

Like, we all, you know, fishing, whatever. But you don't have to be on a, you know, a crusader for for queer folks

Densil Porteous [: 00:55:58

to

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:55:58

be an ally. I mean, there's varying degrees of things that you can do. And I I I love that you you added that Mhmm. To the conversation.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:56:06

It's it's, you know, it's really simple, in certain instances. It's as simple as, old saying, Live and let live. Just don't try to be obstructionary or destructive towards others. Just just allow your fellow person to do them. Mhmm. And it'll be, you know, be able to be supportive, be able to be civil, and and not be divisive or try to turn others against, folks because like you said, because of differences. You know, it's just, some instances where there is so many active, participants in Stern Division. You know, and even amongst, you know, amongst groups, You even had it.

Kenneth Wilson [: 00:57:02

You had certain elements of that. What message would you like to convey to those who are not supportive of LGBTQ rights? And and what are some of the misconceptions and stereotypes you encounter?

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:57:18

I I pretty much resort to the same set of questions, in numerous situations. And if folks aren't comfortable with LGBTQ rights, then my question is why? What is it that makes you uncomfortable? What is the source of your discomfort, your disapproval? And to sit with that, I can't tell them why they're uncomfortable, but I also then follow-up with what if it was you? Or if you can't relate to that, what if it was your child or a sibling or a parent who is being denied basic rights, who's being denied the dignity to exist, or being made to feel like they don't deserve to exist, would you care then? And I know for some people that still wouldn't matter. You know, my father disowned me when I came out as trans, for religious reasons, and he's never gonna change. And I think in that case, I have to pick my battles. Right? I have to be realistic with folks, and so I only invest my time into people who are going to engage a beginner's mind and come to the table ready to have dialogue. And I'm not going to judge or shame anybody. We can have an open conversation, and also, we don't have to agree to understand each other. We don't have to agree to empathize with each other, And that's where it all comes down to me, empathy.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 00:58:47

If we can cultivate empathy, then we're cultivating the ability for other people to relate to the emotional experiences that others have, even if they cannot relate to the lived reality. And if we can connect on an emotional level like that, I believe that's where revolutions occur.

Densil Porteous [: 00:59:04

Mhmm. I'm gonna follow-up with a very simple thing. I believe everybody wants to be happy. Like, everyone wants to be happy. And so I think it's our personal responsibilities to figure out how we can help everyone be happy. You shouldn't stop anyone else's joy, especially if it's not hurting anyone. You know, I think, of course, we wanna make sure that we are safe physically and emotionally all the time. But happiness is ultimately, I think, the end all be all for each one of us.

Densil Porteous [: 00:59:38

Right? We we wanna figure out how we can just simply be happy. And so when you have folks who find intentional ways to steal and destroy your happiness, that that is not something I understand. I I I just simply don't get it. I don't believe I've ever been taught to go intentionally out of my way to steal someone else's joy. And that seems, disheartening, at the least, I guess. Right? It's disheartening at least, and and and demoralizing, at at at worse, to be able to say that you are intentionally trying to steal someone else's joy and happiness. Because you yourself are trying to figure that out for your for yourself.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:00:21

And that's where I I end up with what kind of person intentionally goes out and causes harm. It's not a happy person. And that's how I I came to a place of empathy with my father, is that I recognized that he was taught violence. He was taught intolerance from his parents. What an awful life.

Densil Porteous [: 01:00:41

What an awful life.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:00:42

I don't think he's ever known love. And, when I realized that, it became impossible for

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:00:49

me to hate him. Mhmm.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:00:52

What kind of person goes out and says, go kill yourself because you're painting a rainbow on the street? I don't think that person is very happy and so that to me has been a really pivotal point or like really, like, important part of my work is really empathizing with folks who just don't get it. And I'm gonna add, yet. They don't get it yet because I'm always gonna enter the conversation with hope.

Densil Porteous [: 01:01:18

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:01:19

With hope that that empathy is possible. And that's how I get through the negative times. Right? Step forward.

Densil Porteous [: 01:01:25

I mean, that's probably why we're still here. Right? We we have hope that it's gonna change. You're not gonna

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:01:31

be a leader in this movement if you have no hope. No. Yeah. And and and leading into that, hope and forecasting, the future, thinking in a inspirational way. If we fast forward 10 years from where we are today and we were doing this podcast, how will Franklin County be different in a positive way? And then the second part of the question is, how could Franklin County be worse off as it relates to, acceptance and equality for the LBGTQ community?

Densil Porteous [: 01:02:15

I will start off by saying, it would be worse off if we move backwards in relation to legislation and policies, that support, inclusion within the community. So as long as we don't do anything silly like that, I think we will be heading in the right direction. I think, you know, in 10 years, as sad as I think it is to say this, I don't think the conversation will change too much. And when I say that, I mean, I I think we will still be having conversations about inclusion, about folks, that are not sitting at the table. You know, I'm thankful that we live currently in Franklin County because it is it it feels very inclusive right now. We we are sitting here having a conversation with the administrator about LGBTQ identities. Like, that's pretty darn inclusive to me. Right? Like, I think that's that's that's important.

Densil Porteous [: 01:03:07

You know, and I think as long as we continue to have these conversations and make space for the dialogue, hopefully, we can, change hearts and minds, because change takes time. I think if anyone believes it's gonna happen overnight, then you're silly. Sorry. But change takes time. And I think the more that we are able to have conversations like this in our community, and put it out in the world for others to digest it, to sit with it, in private sometimes because often, you know, the the most learning and the heart changing happens in private. So when people can sit down on their own in a in a personal moment and listen to this conversation or engage, with with individuals, who are different than themselves, I think that's gonna do the work to keep us on the right path. But, you know, 10 years from now, my heart and my hope is is that the community will be larger. It will be more diverse, and we are still on that path of inclusion that we I think we are on right now, hopefully.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:04:04

Yeah. I agree. I don't think any change does take time. And given that I've seen a quarter of a century of what what happens when you come out as trans and and and everything that follows, the the conversations are very similar, but we've evolved a bit. Mhmm. And now we have a a greater understanding of non binary identities, which we didn't have much of, 25 years ago. But what what Franklin County needs to continue doing, and I'm seeing I'm seeing you do this. When you invited when I was invited to come and speak in November, continue to center the voices that have been historically erased or or oppressed, or are being devalued and excluded because we need to hear those stories.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:04:53

And the more stories we hear, we won't be able to ignore them. And queer folks are gonna come to the table, transvers are gonna come to the table, and they're gonna have the ideas, and you're gonna be able to lean on them and follow their lead. That's So center those voices, uplift those voices, and and listen to what they're saying, and implement changes that are permanent. Mhmm. So, there are believe are are, plans to do something more permanent in Whitehall. I don't have confirmation yet, but the mayor is taking so this is just an example. The mayor is taking this opportunity. That's why I think oppression is an opportunity.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:05:29

It's an opportunity for community to come together and say, no, we're not gonna tolerate this, and we're gonna we're gonna come together in bigger and better numbers. But then, to take it even a step further and do something that's permanent, and and, and then to build on that in coming years, that's how Franklin Covey can Franklin Covey. Frank I used to work for Franklin Covey. That's how Franklin County That's actually what got me started on this path, to be honest, 25 years ago working for Franklin Covey. But institutionalizing, policies and protocols and and centering those voices instead of just once a month doing a feature, or once a year doing a feature in pride month or pride or for queer history month?

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:06:20

I want both of you to tell me, who has been your inspiration? If it's a it's tough because I'm gonna say one individual. There's been your inspiration in this work and have got you through, some tough times, and it's giving you, a extra boost through times you felt energized.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:06:53

There are so many.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:06:56

Just pull one out the building. Well Are you a writer? You're taking notes. You're taking notes. Not at this podcast. That's my ADHD. That's

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:07:04

That's not ADHD. Yeah. Yeah. So I got

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:07:06

so I

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:07:07

can listen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there is, one person you might have heard of him, doctor Martin Luther King Junior, who has a quote that inspires my allyship, for anyone, not just communities of color. And and that is in the end, we will not remember the words of our allies.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:07:26

We will remember the silence of, oh crap, I got it wrong. The words of our enemies, we will remember the silence of our allies. That's what it is. I show that in a lot of programs that I do, but that's what reminds me. Okay. My silence has consequences. My silence speaks volumes. My silence lets people know that I'm willing to watch their dehumanization, because that is not something that I can tolerate.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:07:50

So I I remember that. I also remember a quote from Angela, was it Angela Douglas? Davis. Davis. Yes. Thank you. So sorry. Alright. I'll say that again.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:08:02

A quote from Angela Davis that when we speak, we are afraid, and when we do not speak, we are afraid. Therefore, we should always speak. So, fear should not be guiding me to back away. It should be guiding me to step forward.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:08:20

Thank you. You silence oftentimes allows for consent.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:08:26

Absolutely. Yes.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:08:28

And and and during this conversation, you both pointed at different, points in time. It's important that your allies speak when you're not in the room.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:08:40

Yes. And I it goes back to the theme, live out loud. Right? We need our allies living out loud too, and and stepping up when it when it feels scary to do so. Because we're out here living that every day. It's every day. Every single day. Being out is risky. Now, I recognize that my whiteness and cis passingness has shielded me from the brunt of transphobia and homophobia, which puts me in a good position to be an ally.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:09:07

Even for other trans people, because people don't usually know that I'm trans. So I have a voice that I can leverage. And that feels like my calling. But it's dangerous to be out there, and in fact, when I was doing the work with Whitehall, I was concerned. There were safety things that I had to think about. And, in fact, one of our volunteers put together a safety plan for for all of the volunteers. These are very real things, and we need those allies, those those, advocates, those co conspirators, to to stand there with us, to help protect us and and get us through some some sometimes very difficult and scary moments.

Densil Porteous [: 01:09:47

I'm gonna, respond to the query. I would probably say my mom inspires me, but then to go deeper, because she's not living any any longer. You know, I think if I'm picking someone, I'm inspired by her because, I I think I do a lot of the things, to not to say to to prove something to her, but more a validation of what it was when I was younger. You know, I grew up in a Pentecostal home. I'm from the Caribbean. Right? Like, all of these things that, if my mother were still alive today, I sadly believe I'd probably be married to a woman and living some fallacy of life. My when my mother passed away, I sort of had to take this blessing, that she did not give me, but a blessing to say it's gonna be okay. You can be yourself.

Densil Porteous [: 01:10:36

And so I in in a weird way, you know, I I definitely say that she is my motivation and my inspiration. My mother also passed away from HIV AIDS, when I was 14, 15 years old. And so that is also part of the motivation and inspiration because she wasn't a, lesbian. She wasn't an IV drug user. Like, there was nothing there. But growing up in the eighties, you understood that the people who were going to pass away were black gay men, at least when where I was from HIV AIDS. Because our cis counterparts could have medication and afford it.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:11:09

Mhmm.

Densil Porteous [: 01:11:09

So again, that that is that is sort of the the philosophical inspiration. As I've gotten older, and I know you said one person, like, I gotta think I gotta give a second.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:11:18

You can give me more. I got you got you got the first one. You got the mic over.

Densil Porteous [: 01:11:22

The the other the other one that I lean into is Bayard Rustin, who only recently is getting more attention, which I think is phenomenal. You know, Bayard Rustin was the heart of, I would say, the the civil rights movement. Right? He was the one that helped us march on Washington, not the queer identity, but black people, black identities, this this this jobs, you know, also known as the March on Washington. Right? He was the one that at the center of it, right, worked along doctor Martin Luther King Junior and made this thing happen. He was instrumental in a lot of the things that were happening. He was the one that really helped doctor Martin Luther King understand the notion of peaceful protesting and what these what these things meant. And so when I think about the inspiration, for him, I often say that my words may matter more when I'm gone. And that's sad to think about that.

Densil Porteous [: 01:12:14

But that's why I realized that his words sort of are more powerful now that he's no longer with us. And that is an inspiration to me. So I, you know, I think very thoughtfully and intentionally about the things that I say, but also the things that I write down and put out in the world, because I hope, that in the future, people will understand that we were moving in the right direction, and that we there are people here who've been really thoughtful and intentional about, you know, what it means to be inclusive. So a little bit too.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:12:41

I think I'd have to quote in my head around right. In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:12:50

That's one of his Martin Luther King left us with many powerful Posting quits your day. Powerful quote. Many, many powerful quotes. As county administrator, the largest county in the state, I spent a lot of time looking outside, the 88 counties, that are in Ohio, in truck looking nationally for best practices and how to stay ahead and how to make this community better. In the area of LBGTQ rights and, environments where people can thrive in in every endeavor, are there some communities out there that stand above Columbus and Franklin County, that you could share for us to look at and and how we can improve as a as a county, in creating an environment that is inclusive and and and built for, individuals to thrive that are members of ALBGT community?

Densil Porteous [: 01:14:00

You know, that's a a great question, and I think, an important one. However, what I would say is, you know, let's not compare ourselves to other places. Look and see what they're doing and then take what's good for us. Much like humans, right, everyone needs something a little bit different. I think our community here in Franklin County may need something a little bit different. You know? So I can say, yeah. You can look and see what they're doing in the county of San Francisco. Right? They're doing lots of different things, but that may not work for us exactly.

Densil Porteous [: 01:14:29

Right? But we can look at it and see what pieces make sense.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:14:33

Benchmarking.

Densil Porteous [: 01:14:34

And then and then and then and then go to

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:14:36

one county. You've seen one county. Correct.

Densil Porteous [: 01:14:38

Right. But then you come back to our community and say, what what do you all need? Is this close? Is this enough? Where do we where do we push ourselves? So, you know, frankly or excuse me. San Francisco County, sure. Great place to look at and see the things that they they're pushing when they've established a transgender district in their community. Again, space matters. Visibility matters. But is that what we need here? Rightly, is that the only thing that we need here? So I think, again, looking at what other counties are doing is great, but really, ask community here, 1st and foremost, what what is it that you need, and how can we support you, and and then figure out where to go.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:15:15

Yeah. Very different populations in different in different counties. So, a one one size fits all approach will not work for DEI no matter what what it is, really. Mhmm. And for for being San Francisco such an well, first of all, it's very expensive, so think about who can actually afford to live there. Right? And so all of these other factors need to be taken into consideration. Also, the history, the history of the county. What sorts of systems are in place that are are working just as they were intended.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:15:50

Which is to, you know, keep some populations down and others elevated. That's gonna vary. California is a much more liberal state in general. So, yeah, I agree. I think you can look look around, do some shopping, but then really look carefully. Is this gonna fit? Is this the shoe that's gonna fit Franklin County? Maybe we need to adjust it. Maybe our feet are a little wider. Mhmm.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:16:14

We need a wider shoe. You know? You gotta you gotta custom fit that. Yep.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:16:22

Economic inclusion is the greatest fuel to promote equity in my opinion. Mhmm. Again, my opinion in my opinion, I repeat listeners, economic inclusion is the greatest fuel to equity. When I look at movements and I look at the advancement of people, economic equity has been where it's at. Where are we as a community here in Franklin County when we look at, the economic condition, for individuals that are members of the LDGG plus community? Business ownership, homeownership, all of these, socioeconomic, categories that feed into, economic mobility and economic inclusion.

Densil Porteous [: 01:17:17

It's interesting because I think when you when you look at it, here in the county, you will you will see, a stratification of who has it and who has it. Right? I think, and that's within the LGBTQ group or whatever groups. I think within our county here, that stratification is very wide, where you will see cis, queer folks, who are able to say, I've got the resources or the ability to do a lot of things. And then on the other spectrum, you will find, black trans folks who are saying, I have nothing. I can't. I can't. And we have to think about the systems that are in place that are keeping these things from happening. Right? When when a black trans person maybe goes to apply for a job, and we know that maybe they did not, go through the process of of completely, getting, you know, documents updated with legal with name changes and all these things.

Densil Porteous [: 01:18:17

There are challenges in terms of that system to say, well, why can't you just hire this individual, right, and use the preferred name, and but some people will say, well, we we don't our systems can't manage this, or we've gotta call you Roger. Well, no. You actually have to call someone by their dead name. You can actually use the name that they still choose to be called. Right? It's easy. Like, it's it's it's a lot. So I think within within within, the systems here, we're seeing a lot of that stratification. One of the things that we started doing here at Stonewall because I also agree, that economic empowerment is essential, to to uplift within community.

Densil Porteous [: 01:18:52

We started looking at how can we create, pathways to personal empowerment for for community. So in particular, our trans community, those who are coming back from incarceration within our community. These are identities that are often underemployed, and have a challenge. So how do we help them understand that they they have a value in our in our in our system? We started a program. We haven't fully set up yet. We talked about, here where we're opening a cafe, and those who will be in employment will be trans folks and those who are returning from incarceration. Hospitality sort of at a baseline to me is is is a great way to get anyone, to the next place. Right? If we understand how to interact and communicate with people, whether that be making a cup of coffee or selling them a donut.

Densil Porteous [: 01:19:34

Right? I think that that's a skill set that's transferable to many, many, many different things, right, to understand how to work with a variety of people. So I think that's something that we are attuned to here, at Stonewall in particular. I mean, then how do we, sort of bring that message out into the community, as well? When we're talking to our corporate partners, it's a conversation that we have. What what are you doing within your organization to, look for employees and associates not within the traditional spaces? Are you putting yourself and and your organization in front of, queer and trans identities in places that you don't often go? Are you posting jobs on Stonewall's jobs board? Are you looking at Equality Ohio, and and connecting with them in in in the work they're doing to get in front of, some of their job fairs? So I think it's it's it is those things that I think are essential, and things that we're talking about, but it's not something that I think our community has always talked about Mhmm. Very directly, because of who has been sitting at the table. Yeah. Right? Because for most of the time, the people who've been sitting at the leadership table have been, affluent queer folks who have the capacity to do the things that they need to do. And they are not often always the ones who are, again, right now anyway, the most in need, because, again, economic empowerment allows you to to sort of rise above certain things, and not understand some of the challenges within community.

Densil Porteous [: 01:20:54

That was a really long answer to sort of talk about all the aspects of it. But these are all the things that that our community members are reaching out to us here and talking about, and asking for, you know, jobs boards and where are people looking looking to to come and and tell us that we can work with them or empower again, our trans community members in in in wonderful ways.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:21:14

Long answers are welcome, by the way. I'm calling them. So there are there's nothing wrong with long answers because one of the original goals from the start was to get information out to the people about all the things that are Franklin County. So you can give a real long answer now to, doctor Taylor. Come on. Give me a long answer now.

Densil Porteous [: 01:21:36

Well, I'll

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:21:36

just add something that you're you're talking about intersectionality again. Right? We gotta look at have that granular analysis because the different populations within the community are affected differently. There's one population that I always try to uplift and that's, the people who are in recovery in our community and the history of, you know, the fact that historically people had to gather in bars to hide themselves. And what does that set our community up for? A history of addiction. A history of using substances to self medicate. To stop feeling a sense of self loathing because our society has told us that we're loathable, not lovable. And so many queer spaces are centered around alcohol. So that also affects someone's ability to get jobs.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:22:27

Right? Their upward mobility, and I feel like this is a population that oftentimes gets overlooked, and continues to be stigmatized. And again, here I think of empathy. What is driving folks? And what are we putting into place to support them in in various spaces?

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:22:48

Yeah.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:22:48

That's all that I thought about with with, with To add to that, to your lengthy answer? Mhmm.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:22:56

Yeah. You know, you know, and, having empathy, being inclusive, being an accessible community that allows for economic opportunity is really where it's at. I mean, that's extremely important. And you, Dizia Dizia, you mentioned the hospitality industry and and that being a occupational pathway. That led me to, the bonus the bonus associated with having a reputation nationally as a open and smart community leads to additional opportunities in the travel and tourism space that will soon be, 9, $10,000,000,000 annual, benefit to Franklin County and, the Greater Central Ohio region. In in having, events like, the pride parade in in the march, fills hotel rooms, fills restaurants. It fills our, our our bars and entertainment establishments. And there are number of events.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:24:18

I know, the Greater Columbus Sports Commission had just recently they've talked to the county with they've never shied away from events like the softball, world series, and been aggressive in in in in in promoting, the entire community and and and not being afraid to say that on a national scale. We got a leg up on many communities, because we we haven't had to deal with things like bathroom bills that have put other that have put other communities at a disadvantage for people not wanting to be there. Mhmm. So it, inclusion matters, and there's economic benefits for the larger central highway economy, being inclusive. And if you gotta get people to be inclusive and treat people right, some people that takes that as a motivation for them too to do the right thing.

Densil Porteous [: 01:25:17

You know, and and I and I think, well, I think about it from a perspective of tourism, but I also think and what I see, at least for our our pride events, people will come and stay. Right? And I don't mean, like, stay for a weekend. I mean, stay stay. Like, they they come and they say Columbus. The the region was great. I had a great time. Went up to Dublin, did this thing, like, whatever. And then, like, I'm staying.

Densil Porteous [: 01:25:37

I'm gonna go and look, about moving here. And I think that's something that we also need to think about. Right? Like, tourism also breeds residents. Fees population. They they start to say, I wanna be a part of this community because it was so great. You know, this this, this last, pride, just this weekend. It seems like so far away. Right? You know, one of the one of the entertainers that we brought in came from California, a dear friend of mine.

Densil Porteous [: 01:26:01

And before they left, they were texting back home with their partner and, like, sharing links for different residential places to be looking at. So I think that's the thing that we think about. When we create an inclusive place, people wanna come and visit, but then they wanna stay. And that's a great thing too.

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:26:16

It's a great great thing. It's it's been really great talking to you, mister Portis and, you, doctor Taylor, about pride month and about the importance of living out loud 365 days a year, and and then promoting inclusiveness. It has really been a great conversation, and I would like to thank both of you, for sharing your, wisdom with, our podcast listeners as we conclude, this happy pride month edition of Talk of the County.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:26:53

Thank you so much for, having us. Yeah.

Densil Porteous [: 01:26:55

Thank you.

Dr. Leo Taylor [: 01:26:56

It's been great. Okay. Appreciate

Kenneth Wilson [: 01:26:58

it. Thank you. We wrap up with my ending quote. Do you because nobody else has time